Vespucci University Discussion Thread.

[Neo]

Hello everyone! I'm @Neo, the faction leader for Vespucci University. I've created this topic today as a means of discussion with the general community to hear all your thoughts, opinions, feelings about University Roleplay and how that can interact with other aspects of life in Liberty City.

 

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We'd like to get your insight on how certain things should work. If you have an opinion, idea or question, please feel free to drop it in the comments and we will try to get back to you. I can't promise you that everything asked will be answered in this thread, but all your opinions are invaluable and everything will be discussed and considered in our internal faction development channel.

 

I'd like to also preface this by saying that at the time of writing this, we have no plans on having a blanket ban on any form of roleplay. We are very much in line with LCRP's view of less OOC oversight and believe that everything should be handled on an IC basis. However, all student characters should be mindful that Vespucci is a prestigious school (akin to Ivies such as Harvard, Princeton, and Yale) and its students would have put a considerable amount of effort into getting accepted, so actively pursuing a life of crime while enrolled would be counterintuitive.

 

With that being said, I'd like to first address some points and get your feedback on points that have been brought up in our development channel.

 

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• Felonies.

This is the big one. Initially, we had the plan to ban student felonies but eventually concluded that it has the potential to get out of hand. For instance, to address a slightly more controversial point, are we to OOCly step in if a frat boy and another party both OOC agree to a scene in which a date rape drug is used? Or is that something that should be handled ICly if reported, even though it could be considered a felony.

 

• School Shootings. 

Another point that we've been torn on. We initially said that no school shootings would be allowed as that has the potential to have ramifications both in the faction and outside of it. It affects the whole server if a severe enough crime like that occurred. However, it was countered that it's quite hard to get a gun in NYC, and the fact that it's also possible to just invest money into good campus security to prevent it. This is something we haven't fully settled on. 

 

• Portrayal.

Vespucci University is an ivy league school, based off it's IRL counterpart, Columbia University. Whilst I expect and wholly welcome some childish shenanigans, pranks etc, there's is a certain level of maturity that we expect and hope that ICly, the process of being accepted into a school like this is respected as an arduous one.

 

• Inter-faction roleplay.

A big point here is that we have plans to hand out physical, IC degrees for course completion. Should other factions or companies such as a law firm, or the PD take into consideration if people get a degree from us? This might actually be a question for management and the proposed faction senate. Another big one is student internships, guest professors etc. I think it would be really neat to have a guest from say, LCFD come in and have a class demonstrating the dangers of fire etc. Likewise, having students go out to other factions and complete internships. 

 

• Grades + Qualifications.

This is another big one we're stuck on. We have the plan not to have any sort of long boring lectures. We want classes to be interactive and fun! An actual roleplay experience, and not listening to someone talk for 40 minutes. Consider say, engineering class. We could loan a broken car from the impound and let the professor show the students how to repair certain parts. For a business class, maybe a mock version of dragon's den / shark tank. But, doing this means there's no actual "academic" stuff to do. There's no exams and thus, no fair way to have grades, especially considering that time zone wise, not everyone will be able to attend class. We currently have no idea how we're going to give out grades, if at all. Input on this is greatly appreciated.

 

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Of course, you don't have to address any of the above. Feel free to drop your own thoughts that haven't been mentioned here. I'd like to extend a big thank you for reading this and in advance of meaningful discussion. If you're interested in the faction, you can join our discord - Here

[Geo]

32 minutes ago, Neo said:

Felonies

 

Everything that's not Rape, sexual harassment, necrophilia and cannibalism can remain IC. The two parties should agree if one party is drugging another with the intent to rape her, but committing the rape is what needs permission, not the preliminary steps to get to rape (eg: Drugging someone). In terms of other felonies, I think a strong connection between VU and Admins is crucial. Obviously, if you find out someone has a felony drug charge, you can just remove that person, as opposed to setting a standard and punishing them for exploring different paths in their characters. 

 

32 minutes ago, Neo said:

School Shootings

I think the cons that this RP brings severely outweigh the pros. Poor RP from school shootings can break immersion and upset players, and I can forecast some of our "less serious" players using the school like a Nuketown lobby because they know it's populated. I say no, and make it fall under a 'Crime Free Zone'.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Neo said:

Portrayal

 

I think limiting one's character to a very pleasant and fruitful upbringing could potentially put a lot of great roleplay to halt. Although we are wanting to emulate IRL, I think allowing people from all walks of life to attend VU would be stellar. I would personally hate to make a character with absolutely rich parents just so I can roleplay a student. On that, if somehow another University comes to LCRP, then that topic can be rediscussed. But for now, my vote is on keeping it as a regular Uni.

32 minutes ago, Neo said:

Inter-faction roleplay.

 

Another big iffy one. Some people set their character to 28 and they stay at 28 indefinitely. If players are forced to go to VU to take a degree that is complimentary to their job then they might just rush through VU, caring less about the roleplay and more about getting the prerequisites to do what they actually want to do. I think having degrees IC is a great idea, but maybe companies can look at that person in a better light as opposed to making it a necessary requirement to move up payment tiers.

32 minutes ago, Neo said:

Grades + Qualifications

 

ULSA from GTA:World has shown me that people could care less about what they take. I'd say maybe 10% of the players attending the classes IC are there to facilitate roleplay to exceed their personal agenda. I don't think VU should have a grading system. If I took Engineering class and I was failing due to IRL obligations, I'd be outright pissed irl as I look to my Engineering degree beside me. I think VU should be lecture based, but have a more interactive touch to it. 

 

 

Although University Roleplay is definitely not my thing, it will go far, especially with Neo running the show. Good luck.

[Neo]

5 minutes ago, Geo said:

 

Everything that's not Rape, sexual harassment, necrophilia and cannibalism can remain IC. The two parties should agree if one party is drugging another with the intent to rape her, but committing the rape is what needs permission, not the preliminary steps to get to rape (eg: Drugging someone). In terms of other felonies, I think a strong connection between VU and Admins is crucial. Obviously, if you find out someone has a felony drug charge, you can just remove that person, as opposed to setting a standard and punishing them for exploring different paths in their characters. 

 

I think the cons that this RP brings severely outweigh the cons. Poor RP from school shootings can break immersion and upset players, and I can forecast some of our "less serious" players using the school like a Nuketown lobby because they know it's populated. I say no, and make it fall under a 'Crime Free Zone'.

 

 

 

I think limiting one's character to a very pleasant and fruitful upbringing could potentially put a lot of great roleplay to halt. Although we are wanting to emulate IRL, I think allowing people from all walks of life to attend VU would be stellar. I would personally hate to make a character with absolutely rich parents just so I can roleplay a student. On that, if somehow another University comes to LCRP, then that topic can be rediscussed. But for now, my vote is on keeping it as a regular Uni.

 

Another big iffy one. Some people set their character to 28 and they stay at 28 indefinitely. If players are forced to go to VU to take a degree that is complimentary to their job then they might just rush through VU, caring less about the roleplay and more about getting the prerequisites to do what they actually want to do. I think having degrees IC is a great idea, but maybe companies can look at that person in a better light as opposed to making it a necessary requirement to move up payment tiers.

 

ULSA from GTA:World has shown me that people could care less about what they take. I'd say maybe 10% of the players attending the classes IC are there to facilitate roleplay to exceed their personal agenda. I don't think VU should have a grading system. If I took Engineering class and I was failing due to IRL obligations, I'd be outright pissed irl as I look to my Engineering degree beside me. I think VU should be lecture based, but have a more interactive touch to it. 

 

 

Although University Roleplay is definitely not my thing, it will go far, especially with Neo running the show. Good luck.

 

Excellent points Geo, thank you! We have a lot to consider and this is valuable insight.

[Brett]

I'll try to bang this out. 

 

1. Felonies
   1. Keep it IC. No need to bring it into the OOC, anymore then it is to deal with any other IC crime.
2. School Shootings
   1. Keep it IC. There really shouldn't be a ton of students trying to bring firearms on campus as it's not the most realistic of a university campus (unless maybe you go to a university in a very conservative state which allows students to carry on campus), and actions from outside parties to shoot on school grounds can make for huge IC events for the city, police, civilians, etc that can lead to a story on it's own. Personally, I don't see this becoming a big deal, but even if it does I say keep it IC.
3. Portrayal.
   1. Keep it IC. Not much else to say on this.
4. Inter-Faction Roleplay
   1. This is something we've always had issues with, because although it's rather realistic for someone to have a degree or specialized knowledge for certain faction roles such as learning about Fire Science before becoming like a Fire Marshal, it's hard to implement and manage since it's dealing with many different moving parts, policies, membership, etc. I'm willing to try and facilitate programs for government entities as the City Government faction leader to try and make this a thing, but I can't really say how it all will work right now without further discussion.
5. Grading Criteria
   1. Personally? The idea of having an academic faction, trying to get away from making people do the "boring," parts of academic learning is bizarre to me. Anyone attempting to be a "student," at an institution such as this in even a roleplay environment should be fully aware that they will have to do some unfun things such as essay writing, or some minor academic assignments that must be turned into a professor. Although I understand that people may not necessarily find it the most fun to do this stuff, at the same time if you're signing up to roleplay a student in a university setting that is an acknowledgement that you will need to do this kind of stuff from time to time. Of course it doesn't need to be any where near as intensive as real life, but removing it entirely shouldn't at all even be on the table. I believe there is a few ways you can get the academics in without making it a long-boring lecture or anything of the sort, but this also goes into seeing what kind of programs you're wanting to offer to people along with the curriculum. I could give more suggestions on this but I honestly would need far more information to help you out here then what is presented, but it's at least a start. 

[Neo]

1 minute ago, Brett said:

I'll try to bang this out. 

 

1. Felonies
   1. Keep it IC. No need to bring it into the OOC, anymore then it is to deal with any other IC crime.
2. School Shootings
   1. Keep it IC. There really shouldn't be a ton of students trying to bring firearms on campus as it's not the most realistic of a university campus (unless maybe you go to a university in a very conservative state which allows students to carry on campus), and actions from outside parties to shoot on school grounds can make for huge IC events for the city, police, civilians, etc that can lead to a story on it's own. Personally, I don't see this becoming a big deal, but even if it does I say keep it IC.
3. Portrayal.
   1. Keep it IC. Not much else to say on this.
4. Inter-Faction Roleplay
   1. This is something we've always had issues with, because although it's rather realistic for someone to have a degree or specialized knowledge for certain faction roles such as learning about Fire Science before becoming like a Fire Marshal, it's hard to implement and manage since it's dealing with many different moving parts, policies, membership, etc. I'm willing to try and facilitate programs for government entities as the City Government faction leader to try and make this a thing, but I can't really say how it all will work right now without further discussion.
5. Grading Criteria
   1. Personally? The idea of having an academic faction, trying to get away from making people do the "boring," parts of academic learning is bizarre to me. Anyone attempting to be a "student," at an institution such as this in even a roleplay environment should be fully aware that they will have to do some unfun things such as essay writing, or some minor academic assignments that must be turned into a professor. Although I understand that people may not necessarily find it the most fun to do this stuff, at the same time if you're signing up to roleplay a student in a university setting that is an acknowledgement that you will need to do this kind of stuff from time to time. Of course it doesn't need to be any where near as intensive as real life, but removing it entirely shouldn't at all even be on the table. I believe there is a few ways you can get the academics in without making it a long-boring lecture or anything of the sort, but this also goes into seeing what kind of programs you're wanting to offer to people along with the curriculum. I could give more suggestions on this but I honestly would need far more information to help you out here then what is presented, but it's at least a start. 

 

Thank you Brett, this is incredibly helpful - especially your comments on number 5. I personally agree here and it's something we will need to revise. Maybe have some sort of actual assignments and homework etc. Very insightful, I appreciate it.

[Adam]

Currently a Prof. w/ ULSA.

 

Felonies

For now, I think to more or less allow anything. Enforce a standard of student RP - like already mentioned, and if things get out of control IC, start considering OOC measures to combat unrealistic portrayal. Students shouldn't exclusively be a part of the University factions but allowed to (some extent) roleplay with other factions, including illegal groups. This allows for situations like LCN members or their children attending college while still playing a role within their respective groups.

 

School Shootings

Don't like this idea at all. Can't think of a possible scenario where it would be of benefit to roleplay.

 

Portrayal

While it is portraying an Ivy-league Uni, there needs to be allowances made for the sake of pragmatism. Giving characters a little bit more leeway in terms of level of education, commitment, etc would allow for a lot more roleplay. With that said, there is a line to be drawn, and some characters can border on trollish behaviour. 

 

Inter-faction Roleplay

This is a must-have to keep things interesting but also ensure the university plays a role. Don't agree with having degrees as a prerequisite, but if someone has spent x amount of time developing their character as a law school student, and acquired a law degree IC, then naturally that is going to reflect well when applying for a faction. Every legal faction on the server can offer something to the University in terms of internships, field trips, guest lectures, etc. Further to that point, the University can be used as a hub for things from debates between political candidates to hosting FD v PD boxing matches.

 

Grades/Qualifications

This is an iffy subject. Ultimately, we can't expect students to do real assignments, or spend an hour studying for a fake exam. I do like the idea of allowing students to decide their own grades, etc as they would dictate how much effort and study their character would put in. With that said, if a student is out clubbing every night, then claiming straight A's - for the sake of roleplay quality someone should flag it. Aging up and graduating should be optional and completely on the timeline of the student (within reason).

 

One thing I feel needs improvement is the choice of degree. Students should have a rough idea of what they plan to do with a degree, and choose a subject based on that. What someone studies would dictate a lot about their character. Having a short list of degrees and majors would be the way to go, as opposed to the approach of just picking one from Colombias offering. 

 

EDIT: There are ways to have students complete 'assignments' without being too boring. I've found the best way to do this is group work during a lecture or field trip, or small presentations at the end of a class. I have to completely disagree with setting assignments or exams, it simply isn't sustainable for a faction like this, which is quite frankly - quite niche. Furthermore, as someone who happily spends an 2-3 hours a week planning classes, there is no way I'd be coming up with essay ideas and marking exams.

[Neo]

6 minutes ago, Adam said:

Currently a Prof. w/ ULSA.

 

Felonies

For now, I think to more or less allow anything. Enforce a standard of student RP - like already mentioned, and if things get out of control IC, start considering OOC measures to combat unrealistic portrayal. Students shouldn't exclusively be a part of the University factions but allowed to (some extent) roleplay with other factions, including illegal groups. This allows for situations like LCN members or their children attending college while still playing a role within their respective groups.

 

School Shootings

Don't like this idea at all. Can't think of a possible scenario where it would be of benefit to roleplay.

 

Portrayal

While it is portraying an Ivy-league Uni, there needs to be allowances made for the sake of pragmatism. Giving characters a little bit more leeway in terms of level of education, commitment, etc would allow for a lot more roleplay. With that said, there is a line to be drawn, and some characters can border on trollish behaviour. 

 

Inter-faction Roleplay

This is a must-have to keep things interesting but also ensure the university plays a role. Don't agree with having degrees as a prerequisite, but if someone has spent x amount of time developing their character as a law school student, and acquired a law degree IC, then naturally that is going to reflect well when applying for a faction. Every legal faction on the server can offer something to the University in terms of internships, field trips, guest lectures, etc. Further to that point, the University can be used as a hub for things from debates between political candidates to hosting FD v PD boxing matches.

 

Grades/Qualifications

This is an iffy subject. Ultimately, we can't expect students to do real assignments, or spend an hour studying for a fake exam. I do like the idea of allowing students to decide their own grades, etc as they would dictate how much effort and study their character would put in. With that said, if a student is out clubbing every night, then claiming straight A's - for the sake of roleplay quality someone should flag it. Aging up and graduating should be optional and completely on the timeline of the student (within reason).

 

One thing I feel needs improvement is the choice of degree. Students should have a rough idea of what they plan to do with a degree, and choose a subject based on that. What someone studies would dictate a lot about their character. Having a short list of degrees and majors would be the way to go, as opposed to the approach of just picking one from Colombias offering. 

 

Very helpful, thank you so much! I will bear all of this in mind and discuss it when we get further into development.

[Ascendency]

People may just do school shootings when they want, so that's a bit disturbing. I think that school shootings should stay with the permission of an administrator.

[Midsomer]

I want to start my comment about blanket bans on certain roleplay.  Although I admire the hands-off approach to roleplay and the approach the faction is taken by not imposing blanket bans, I personally believe some exceptions should be made.  I also believe one of those exceptions should include and result in a ban on mass rampages (whether perpetrated with a firearm or bladed weapon).

 

While roleplay is not always beneficial — and while, sometimes, its only benefit is entertainment — I think roleplay should strive to be beneficial.  (We should also try to provide some roleplay that is beneficial beyond merely entertainment value).  I cannot see any benefit to rampage roleplay other than a macabre form of entertainment.  If someone wants that kind of entertainment, they can go watch a horror film depicting a rampage.  We should not cater to that.   

 

Now, someone might try to be edgy and take the view that allowing rampages can in some ways prepare participants should something like that happen to them in real life; and that, in this way, it is beneficial beyond being merely entertainment.  To that I would say, as beneficial as a simulated rampage might seem on the surface, I do not think that qualifies because of the potential for abuse here.  As Geo suggested above, there is a risk that trolls would take advantage and intentionally abuse, or break immersion, for their own entertainment.  There is also the risk of a perpetrator unintentionally abusing with unrealistic behavior (and a dispute over lack of realism could also result in a prolonged discussion over whether some specific act was realistic — a discussion which would see no end with the nearly infinite variety of human behaviors).  I do not doubt that experiencing a rampage even in a virtual, filtered and controlled setting with proper instructions and tips can be beneficial in a real and unfiltered emergency — after all, these controlled environments exist in the form of drills/simulations and training videos.  But the salient point is that in those drills and videos, the depictions are taken extremely seriously.  In those drills and training videos, there is no room for intentional abuse, and, certainly, there is no room for trolling.

 

Other than that, we should not be a conduit for violent fantasies, especially in a roleplay setting that is intended to emulate a school with students who are roughly the  same age as a large segment of the community.  That is aside from the fact that, inevitably, we will have members in the community who study and live on or frequent school campuses offline.  I understand roleplay is pure fantasy and that fantasizing about something does not always create anxiety, nor does it always lead to violent tendencies.  Still, I think we should wholly eliminate the possibility of any unintended harm and impose a ban on that roleplay.

 

As to some of the other matters:

 

Grades and qualifications:   Grading and qualifications should depend on whether or not the qualification is for an inter-faction arrangement; I also think assessments should be reduced to a pass-fail scheme.  For instance, if the coroners faction wanted to create a training program for its forensic staff, they would create extensive training material, and an assessment on a pass-fail scheme judged on a criteria established by that faction.   If the academic program is not related to an inter-faction arrangement, then the school can forgo assessments and students, instead, can be issued an acknowledgment or certification completion. 

 

However, it also seems this would be difficult to square with the fact that the faction intends to portray and remain true to its prestigious status.  How can you remain prestigious if there is no way to gauge students' progress?  This is one of many questions, I imagine, you would have to explore when deciding how to approach grading and qualifications. 

 

Inter-faction opportunities:   I agree that degrees or qualifications should not be mandatory.  However, if a faction wants to make a qualification mandatory (let us not forget that it is within their prerogative to make that decision), Vespucci should not turn them away; Vespucci should provide a platform to acquire that qualification, perhaps on the condition that the faction proposing the qualification will develop all of the material necessary to acquire the qualification.  Inter-faction exchange should be encouraged as widely as possible but also within reason; if Vespucci does not have the resources and if the faction proposing the qualification cannot offer material or resources to implement it, then reasonably they can be turned away.  

[Neo]

45 minutes ago, Midsomer said:

I want to start my comment about blanket bans on certain roleplay.  Although I admire the hands-off approach to roleplay and the approach the faction is taken by not imposing blanket bans, I personally believe some exceptions should be made.  I also believe one of those exceptions should include and result in a ban on mass rampages (whether perpetrated with a firearm or bladed weapon).

 

While roleplay is not always beneficial — and while, sometimes, its only benefit is entertainment — I think roleplay should strive to be beneficial.  (We should also try to provide some roleplay that is beneficial beyond merely entertainment value).  I cannot see any benefit to rampage roleplay other than a macabre form of entertainment.  If someone wants that kind of entertainment, they can go watch a horror film depicting a rampage.  We should not cater to that.   

 

Now, someone might try to be edgy and take the view that allowing rampages can in some ways prepare participants should something like that happen to them in real life; and that, in this way, it is beneficial beyond being merely entertainment.  To that I would say, as beneficial as a simulated rampage might seem on the surface, I do not think that qualifies because of the potential for abuse here.  As Geo suggested above, there is a risk that trolls would take advantage and intentionally abuse, or break immersion, for their own entertainment.  There is also the risk of a perpetrator unintentionally abusing with unrealistic behavior (and a dispute over lack of realism could also result in a prolonged discussion over whether some specific act was realistic — a discussion which would see no end with the nearly infinite variety of human behaviors).  I do not doubt that experiencing a rampage even in a virtual, filtered and controlled setting with proper instructions and tips can be beneficial in a real and unfiltered emergency — after all, these controlled environments exist in the form of drills/simulations and training videos.  But the salient point is that in those drills and videos, the depictions are taken extremely seriously.  In those drills and training videos, there is no room for intentional abuse, and, certainly, there is no room for trolling.

 

Other than that, we should not be a conduit for violent fantasies, especially in a roleplay setting that is intended to emulate a school with students who are roughly the  same age as a large segment of the community.  That is aside from the fact that, inevitably, we will have members in the community who study and live on or frequent school campuses offline.  I understand roleplay is pure fantasy and that fantasizing about something does not always create anxiety, nor does it always lead to violent tendencies.  Still, I think we should wholly eliminate the possibility of any unintended harm and impose a ban on that roleplay.

 

As to some of the other matters:

 

Grades and qualifications:   Grading and qualifications should depend on whether or not the qualification is for an inter-faction arrangement; I also think assessments should be reduced to a pass-fail scheme.  For instance, if the coroners faction wanted to create a training program for its forensic staff, they would create extensive training material, and an assessment on a pass-fail scheme judged on a criteria established by that faction.   If the academic program is not related to an inter-faction arrangement, then the school can forgo assessments and students, instead, can be issued an acknowledgment or certification completion. 

 

However, it also seems this would be difficult to square with the fact that the faction intends to portray and remain true to its prestigious status.  How can you remain prestigious if there is no way to gauge students' progress?  This is one of many questions, I imagine, you would have to explore when deciding how to approach grading and qualifications. 

 

Inter-faction opportunities:   I agree that degrees or qualifications should not be mandatory.  However, if a faction wants to make a qualification mandatory (let us not forget that it is within their prerogative to make that decision), Vespucci should not turn them away; Vespucci should provide a platform to acquire that qualification, perhaps on the condition that the faction proposing the qualification will develop all of the material necessary to acquire the qualification.  Inter-faction exchange should be encouraged as widely as possible but also within reason; if Vespucci does not have the resources and if the faction proposing the qualification cannot offer material or resources to implement it, then reasonably they can be turned away.  

 

This is a very insightful answer and has given us a lot to think about - thank you! Your last point in particular is excellent and I fully agree that if a faction wants to make a degree or diploma a requirement, we should absolutely be the place to come and facilitate those classes. I appreciate it!