Revisiting our VOIP discussion

[GioSerpo]

6 hours ago, Biography said:

One of our interests is to maintain a certain percentage of playerbase in order to keep the server active and be able to pay for the expenses. If this suggestion goes through and PD is simply not able to function properly due to massive confusion, we risk loosing a significant number of LEO players, which in turn will affect the entire playerbase.

 

So, essentially, what this boils down to is that the PD are all crying for TS to be a thing, and they'll all leave if it isn't and the server will fail. What about all the people (like me) who really WANT a new era of RP, a new place to play that tries new things? If the PD gets TS, even for pursuits, then, all the talk about 'new era' was JUST talk, and it's going to be the same old shit.

 

This was the last RP project I saw that I was excited for, because I really believed all the talk, but, after seeing this and realizing that maybe it is just talk, I'm less excited. I will say this much, if PD gets VOIP, you lose at least one from your playerbase...

 

Members of the community have given many different ideas of things we should try instead, and they are all really good ideas. Staff are making excuses as to why those are bad ideas. If the ideas the community have are bad, then the staff should come up with something. But it should be something new and 100% text based, as this is a text based server at the end of the day.

[cerberus]

22 minutes ago, GioSerpo said:

 

So, essentially, what this boils down to is that the PD are all crying for TS to be a thing, and they'll all leave if it isn't and the server will fail. What about all the people (like me) who really WANT a new era of RP, a new place to play that tries new things? If the PD gets TS, even for pursuits, then, all the talk about 'new era' was JUST talk, and it's going to be the same old shit.

 

This was the last RP project I saw that I was excited for, because I really believed all the talk, but, after seeing this and realizing that maybe it is just talk, I'm less excited. I will say this much, if PD gets VOIP, you lose at least one from your playerbase...

 

Members of the community have given many different ideas of things we should try instead, and they are all really good ideas. Staff are making excuses as to why those are bad ideas. If the ideas the community have are bad, then the staff should come up with something. But it should be something new and 100% text based, as this is a text based server at the end of the day.

 

So you are saying by keeping a TeamSpeak server for LEO-only people destroys the vision and the promise of a "New Era Roleplay"? Isn't that a bit of a harsh comment towards the people who spent hours of their lives to make this possible? I personally do not believe that just because having TeamSpeak we eliminate the standards and viewpoints this community made so far.

[MrWussWuss]

32 minutes ago, GioSerpo said:

 

So, essentially, what this boils down to is that the PD are all crying for TS to be a thing, and they'll all leave if it isn't and the server will fail. What about all the people (like me) who really WANT a new era of RP, a new place to play that tries new things? If the PD gets TS, even for pursuits, then, all the talk about 'new era' was JUST talk, and it's going to be the same old shit.

 

This was the last RP project I saw that I was excited for, because I really believed all the talk, but, after seeing this and realizing that maybe it is just talk, I'm less excited. I will say this much, if PD gets VOIP, you lose at least one from your playerbase...

 

Members of the community have given many different ideas of things we should try instead, and they are all really good ideas. Staff are making excuses as to why those are bad ideas. If the ideas the community have are bad, then the staff should come up with something. But it should be something new and 100% text based, as this is a text based server at the end of the day.

 

That's a pretty shallow take, man. You don't even have to interact with PD. Just do your own thing. Become a florist. Start a butcher shop. Report the news. Become an electrician for the city. Expand your horizons beyond PD having Teamspeak somehow completely ruining your experience. 

[Biography]

1 hour ago, GioSerpo said:

 

So, essentially, what this boils down to is that the PD are all crying for TS to be a thing, and they'll all leave if it isn't and the server will fail. What about all the people (like me) who really WANT a new era of RP, a new place to play that tries new things? If the PD gets TS, even for pursuits, then, all the talk about 'new era' was JUST talk, and it's going to be the same old shit.

 

This was the last RP project I saw that I was excited for, because I really believed all the talk, but, after seeing this and realizing that maybe it is just talk, I'm less excited. I will say this much, if PD gets VOIP, you lose at least one from your playerbase...

 

Members of the community have given many different ideas of things we should try instead, and they are all really good ideas. Staff are making excuses as to why those are bad ideas. If the ideas the community have are bad, then the staff should come up with something. But it should be something new and 100% text based, as this is a text based server at the end of the day.

 

You have a right to form your personal opinions about the philosophy of this community, even if I disagree with them.

 

I don't necessarily think that we are all talk and no action because of our hesitancy with this particular change, because I don't don't necessarily understand the logic behind it. For example, all of the changes we have made so far become null due to our reserved stance on this topic, according to your post. However, if that is what you feel, you are entitled to feel that way.

 

I would again reiterate my previous statement regarding perspectives. I of course do not expect that you look at the community from the perspective of management and you are right to look at it from the perspective of a player, because you do not have access to the channels of communication/information that management does. 

 

The statement I made regarding player numbers does not only apply to PD, it applies to any major "sector" of the community which may cause server instability. However, my argument is that such a drastic change overnight will cause a big percentage of LEO players leaving in an instant, whereas maintaining the current policy will not cause the same for criminal/civilian roleplayers, simply because they are already used to the usage of TS due to years of programming, to put it that way.

 

I will repeat again that as a manager, I am perfectly aware of the issues with VOIP in TS and that change is required, however, it must be done in a way that would not cause chaos in an instant which would inevitably result in instability and loss of big numbers of players.

 

You are free to give up on the community, of course. Without focusing on emotions and meaning to sound offensive, as a managerial entity, I would rather lose 10 players than 60 (fictional example). This does not apply specifically to PD. Of course other factors such as the contribution of said members and the level of competency is to be taken into consideration, however, that is impossible due to the fact that it is hard to calculate it. For example, those 20 that we might lose might be more significant for the community in comparison to the 60, but a lot of players do not necessarily care about that and are mainly interested in the environment feeling alive, which is hard to accomplish with a limited playerbase. This might seem harsh and it may seem that I do not value you as an individual, however, I hope you understand my logic behind it. I also understand management is put in a difficult situation where no matter the decision taken, it will seem that it favors either one side, or the other. 

 

@Rodrigo_Ferrer brought forward a valid suggestion regarding the implementation of more accurate scripts to enhance a text-based system for PD, however, such changes must be consulted with the so called "experts" in this field and therefore it is not a decision I can make overnight, on my own. This requires extensive research and trial before it is made an official policy, and all of this takes time. It is certainly a path that can be explored.

[GioSerpo]

1 hour ago, dean said:

So you are saying by keeping a TeamSpeak server for LEO-only people destroys the vision and the promise of a "New Era Roleplay"? Isn't that a bit of a harsh comment towards the people who spent hours of their lives to make this possible?

It may be harsh, but it's a valid critique. Part of being a good leader is the ability to handle harsh criticism, especially warranted. I'm not downplaying the work that has been put in, I'm saying that if things don't change then all that time is going to go to waste, cause this community will end up like the rest of them. How can you claim that this is a 'new era,' if you're not willing to actually try new methods of the same tried crap that don't work?

 

1 hour ago, MrWussWuss said:

That's a pretty shallow take, man. You don't even have to interact with PD. Just do your own thing. Become a florist. Start a butcher shop. Report the news. Become an electrician for the city. Expand your horizons beyond PD having Teamspeak somehow completely ruining your experience. 

This is a serious, text based RP server, that claims to pride itself in giving the player MORE creativity to RP what they want. I don't want to limit what I can do because the leadership wants to pander to a small percentage of the overall players. The same argument could be made about PD members who want a TS server. If you want a TS server as PD, then just RP as something else, or be like NYC IRL and just don't enter into pursuits... Also though, there is never a situation where you can insure you DON'T interact with the police. If i start a florist or butcher shop, whats to stop someone from robbing me? Then I'd have to interact with the police... The news covers other peoples interactions with the police, so, to cover the news, some stories would require interaction with the police. If I became an electrician and a customer decided not to pay, or worse, accuse me of committing a crime, I'd have to deal with the police. Hell, even if I chose to do NOTHING but script jobs and be THAT person, the chance of the PD pulling me over in day to day life in the server is still there... Saying that someone don't have to interact with PD is the shallow take... Seems like you're RP standards are pretty low, since such an immersion breaking experience don't affect you. 

 

@Biography You said it yourself in the OP that "The last discussion resulted in majority disapproval for this suggestion, however, we want to do it for a final time before we launch." You even said you are aware of the issues that come with the current system. Not to mention that system is more than a decade OLD. It's probably the oldest system on the server. Taking all that into account, why was there a second poll, and why was it JUST for this issue. To me, it seems like at one time, there were fewer PD members, and now that there are very clearly more, a new vote was called for. The PD is NOT the whole community, but, making a new poll when there are more PD members on the forum, and that poll having a different outcome says to me that PD wants to be the only voices heard, and the leadership is letting them.

 

Obviously there have been advancements made in other areas of this community, and I'm not downplaying that, but there is this seeming unwillingness to want to change in other clearly more relevant areas. The harsh truth is that if the current system was disband and a large percentage of LEO would leave due to it, then that's an issue with leadership and training in the PD faction, and a VERY clear over-reliance on dated systems. It also paints a bigger picture in the low quality and standards of RP that those people posses.  Besides, there have been advancements made in the IRL technologies in use by police across the world, and there have been advancements in both the scripting and in game technologies for GTA RP communities as well.

 

Regarding the suggestions made by other members, I understand that it takes time. As close as it seems that we are to launch, for there not to have already been research done into this already strengthens my concerns about the motto being all talk. If that much more research is needed before the policy can be changed, then the call needs to be made to delay the release, because things clearly aren't ready.

 

Onto my last point, I get that not everyone is going to be happy, but, by keeping the current system, you're opening the door to a lower quality of RP standards. While a lot of people want to RP in a world that feels alive, I'm sure that they also would like to be part of high quality RP scenarios, and while 'avoiding situations with the police,' would work to give them high quality RP, as I mentioned earlier, that don't solve the problems.

 

With all that, I do wish this community luck moving forward, but I don't see things lasting. If anything, this has opened my eyes and showed me that there never will be another RP server that I can call home. This was a last ditch effort from an aging RPer to find a last home. A home I could possibly retire from RP from happily. Not everyone gets their fariytale ending though, huh?

[nickM]

59 minutes ago, GioSerpo said:

It may be harsh, but it's a valid critique. Part of being a good leader is the ability to handle harsh criticism, especially warranted. I'm not downplaying the work that has been put in, I'm saying that if things don't change then all that time is going to go to waste, cause this community will end up like the rest of them. How can you claim that this is a 'new era,' if you're not willing to actually try new methods of the same tried crap that don't work?

 

This is a serious, text based RP server, that claims to pride itself in giving the player MORE creativity to RP what they want. I don't want to limit what I can do because the leadership wants to pander to a small percentage of the overall players. The same argument could be made about PD members who want a TS server. If you want a TS server as PD, then just RP as something else, or be like NYC IRL and just don't enter into pursuits... Also though, there is never a situation where you can insure you DON'T interact with the police. If i start a florist or butcher shop, whats to stop someone from robbing me? Then I'd have to interact with the police... The news covers other peoples interactions with the police, so, to cover the news, some stories would require interaction with the police. If I became an electrician and a customer decided not to pay, or worse, accuse me of committing a crime, I'd have to deal with the police. Hell, even if I chose to do NOTHING but script jobs and be THAT person, the chance of the PD pulling me over in day to day life in the server is still there... Saying that someone don't have to interact with PD is the shallow take... Seems like you're RP standards are pretty low, since such an immersion breaking experience don't affect you. 

 

@Biography You said it yourself in the OP that "The last discussion resulted in majority disapproval for this suggestion, however, we want to do it for a final time before we launch." You even said you are aware of the issues that come with the current system. Not to mention that system is more than a decade OLD. It's probably the oldest system on the server. Taking all that into account, why was there a second poll, and why was it JUST for this issue. To me, it seems like at one time, there were fewer PD members, and now that there are very clearly more, a new vote was called for. The PD is NOT the whole community, but, making a new poll when there are more PD members on the forum, and that poll having a different outcome says to me that PD wants to be the only voices heard, and the leadership is letting them.

 

Obviously there have been advancements made in other areas of this community, and I'm not downplaying that, but there is this seeming unwillingness to want to change in other clearly more relevant areas. The harsh truth is that if the current system was disband and a large percentage of LEO would leave due to it, then that's an issue with leadership and training in the PD faction, and a VERY clear over-reliance on dated systems. It also paints a bigger picture in the low quality and standards of RP that those people posses.  Besides, there have been advancements made in the IRL technologies in use by police across the world, and there have been advancements in both the scripting and in game technologies for GTA RP communities as well.

 

Regarding the suggestions made by other members, I understand that it takes time. As close as it seems that we are to launch, for there not to have already been research done into this already strengthens my concerns about the motto being all talk. If that much more research is needed before the policy can be changed, then the call needs to be made to delay the release, because things clearly aren't ready.

 

Onto my last point, I get that not everyone is going to be happy, but, by keeping the current system, you're opening the door to a lower quality of RP standards. While a lot of people want to RP in a world that feels alive, I'm sure that they also would like to be part of high quality RP scenarios, and while 'avoiding situations with the police,' would work to give them high quality RP, as I mentioned earlier, that don't solve the problems.

 

With all that, I do wish this community luck moving forward, but I don't see things lasting. If anything, this has opened my eyes and showed me that there never will be another RP server that I can call home. This was a last ditch effort from an aging RPer to find a last home. A home I could possibly retire from RP from happily. Not everyone gets their fariytale ending though, huh?

 

Clearly someone has too much time to spend on this topic. It's a game that you play to enjoy yourself, and yourself only. "The server will die because of TS" is the funniest thing I've ever read, as TS has never been the reason for server closure, ever. There's this server I know that used TS for about 13 years before shutting down in 2021... maybe the reason was TS, maybe they were not a good RP server.. anyways. 

 

If you stop playing a server because PD is using TS, then you definitely were never interested in the community and found an excuse to call quits. VOIP, be it in-game or on TS, does not affect you in any way. Not having VOIP, well, that benefits you in MANY ways and only makes it miserable for PD. "Do not pursuit like NYPD does", yeah, definitely something to consider.

 

@Biography can you please also put iirc up there, as in-game text updates would give an unfair advantage. Got to properly simulate that radio activation button with a tab in/out.

[Fat Bulldog Ferrer]

9 hours ago, Biography said:

You have a right to form your personal opinions about the philosophy of this community, even if I disagree with them.

 

I don't necessarily think that we are all talk and no action because of our hesitancy with this particular change, because I don't don't necessarily understand the logic behind it. For example, all of the changes we have made so far become null due to our reserved stance on this topic, according to your post. However, if that is what you feel, you are entitled to feel that way.

 

I would again reiterate my previous statement regarding perspectives. I of course do not expect that you look at the community from the perspective of management and you are right to look at it from the perspective of a player, because you do not have access to the channels of communication/information that management does. 

 

The statement I made regarding player numbers does not only apply to PD, it applies to any major "sector" of the community which may cause server instability. However, my argument is that such a drastic change overnight will cause a big percentage of LEO players leaving in an instant, whereas maintaining the current policy will not cause the same for criminal/civilian roleplayers, simply because they are already used to the usage of TS due to years of programming, to put it that way.

 

I will repeat again that as a manager, I am perfectly aware of the issues with VOIP in TS and that change is required, however, it must be done in a way that would not cause chaos in an instant which would inevitably result in instability and loss of big numbers of players.

 

You are free to give up on the community, of course. Without focusing on emotions and meaning to sound offensive, as a managerial entity, I would rather lose 10 players than 60 (fictional example). This does not apply specifically to PD. Of course other factors such as the contribution of said members and the level of competency is to be taken into consideration, however, that is impossible due to the fact that it is hard to calculate it. For example, those 20 that we might lose might be more significant for the community in comparison to the 60, but a lot of players do not necessarily care about that and are mainly interested in the environment feeling alive, which is hard to accomplish with a limited playerbase. This might seem harsh and it may seem that I do not value you as an individual, however, I hope you understand my logic behind it. I also understand management is put in a difficult situation where no matter the decision taken, it will seem that it favors either one side, or the other. 

 

@Rodrigo_Ferrer brought forward a valid suggestion regarding the implementation of more accurate scripts to enhance a text-based system for PD, however, such changes must be consulted with the so called "experts" in this field and therefore it is not a decision I can make overnight, on my own. This requires extensive research and trial before it is made an official policy, and all of this takes time. It is certainly a path that can be explored.

 

That's explained very well.

 

I have personally always thought VOIP should be moved away from but I understand old habits are hard to break, especially considering how central it is to PD operations. It could only be implemented as a process, not as an overnight change.

 

Furthermore, the only way to reach a successful agreement is to gather a small group of players who have well-thought-out arguments and two-way communication between all parties, including management. Otherwise, with all the noise many arguments disappear in a haystack, and there's no real discussion on how particular ideas would work in-game.

 

Because after all, the PD needs to be compensated and the ''VOIP needs to be replaced'' by solutions. Many people argue for losing VOIP but I don't see many suggestions.

[Fat Bulldog Ferrer]

I'll reply back-to-back instead of editing because they cover separate topics but:

 

A major improvement to the current use of VOIP to make it fair for regular players would be to only use one channel for pursuits and have one person responsible (the highest rank online, for example). In case of any suspicion of metagaming one person and the people involved could be held accountable. That would increase trustworthiness and discourage regular players from cheating. In such a scenario it boils down to management and PD leadership to uphold high roleplay standards over playing to win.

 

Furthermore, VOIP should only be allowed in pursuits, not swatting or any other situation (I don't know if they are anymore; at one point in time I know they were allowed, and set criminals at a major disadvantage). 

[ddyelo]

leave only TACs channels in ts3 so that VOIP is only during the chase, since people complain that they write streets slowly, without any channels 1A1-20 etc.

[Biography]

3 hours ago, Rodrigo_Ferrer said:

I'll reply back-to-back instead of editing because they cover separate topics but:

 

A major improvement to the current use of VOIP to make it fair for regular players would be to only use one channel for pursuits and have one person responsible (the highest rank online, for example). In case of any suspicion of metagaming one person and the people involved could be held accountable. That would increase trustworthiness and discourage regular players from cheating. In such a scenario it boils down to management and PD leadership to uphold high roleplay standards over playing to win.

 

Furthermore, VOIP should only be allowed in pursuits, not swatting or any other situation (I don't know if they are anymore; at one point in time I know they were allowed, and set criminals at a major disadvantage). 

 

As it stands, VOIP is used only for pursuits, officer-involved shooting and foot pursuits.

 

What you say about tactical situations has merit. I remember during my time in SWT on LSRP, tactical elements were not only given extra armor, but they also had the ability to use VOIP for coordination. This gave them major advantages and I did see lack of balance, although as an unofficial policy back then, a lot of SWT TLs tried to limit TS usage as much as possible. We could look into limiting that during barricaded situations, given that special weapons will likely receive additional armor. It needs revision, though, because such situations are not only reserved to barricaded/hostage situations, there are dynamic responses such as armed pursuits, etc. This can all be brought up in the next PD meeting @dean